Tldr: frankly I don’t really know about Vegetto, but on its own GT’s power scale is actually pretty simple. Honest!
Vegetto shows up, is the strongest character in DBZ and the original manga, and then helpfully goes away again until DBS. This means he’s not around for GT, which obviously makes any direct comparison between him and GT characters tricky. Still, there are two big pieces of evidence that got brought out on this issue. The first is in GT ep.29, when Baby absorbs power from the Saiyans under his sway to become Super Baby 1 (the stage before his full black-suited form, Super Baby 2). Prior to this point, Goku merely said that it’d been “a long time” since he’d fought anyone as strong as Vegeta-Baby, but in response to Super Baby 1 he says “I’ve never felt ki as awesome as this!”
If taken at face value, this would imply that Super Baby 1 is more powerful (or at least more “awesome”) than Super Vegetto, which would in turn make Super Vegetto greatly inferior to Super Saiyan 4 Goku. There’s no follow-up to this line though, and if the writers really had in mind that Super Baby was stronger than Vegetto, you’d think they might want to stress that a bit more. As far as Vegetto comparisons go, it’s definitely less explicit than Goku’s line in BoG about how even fusing with Vegeta wouldn’t be enough to beat Beerus. From a purely in-universe logistics perspective as well, it’s got to be asked: can people even sense their own ki? Vegetto himself was surprised at how easily he was able to beat Buu, so the idea that Goku necessarily has a good grasp on Vegetto’s true power is maybe at least a little iffy.
The other main piece of evidence isn’t from the GT series itself, but from a special bonus feature in Shueisha’s animanga adaption of GT’s Goku Jr TV special. This “Goku History” section goes over Goku’s life story and various different forms (up until the end of the Baby arc),
and for Vegetto it says: Vegetto is the fusion of Goku and Vegeta via an item called Potara!! He can also transform into Super Vegetto, his Super Saiyan form!! As you’d expect of a fusion between the mightiest pair, they’ve become the strongest in the universe!! Maybe even stronger than Super Saiyan 4?!
So there you have it: a bonus feature with definitely no Toriyama involvement and probably no involvement from anyone who actually wrote GT either says that Vegetto is “maybe” stronger than SS4. Alright, so it is still an official Shueisha publication, but even if we accept this as 100% canon, what does a 100% canonical “maybe” mean in concrete terms? This is a running theme with a lot of these statements from guidebooks and other official secondary sources, since they love hedging their bets.
Unhelpfully, there’s also no rationale given for why Vegetto is “maybe” stronger than SS4, besides being the fusion of the “mightiest pair” (again, this feature only covers up to the Baby arc, so there’s no mention of SS4 Gogeta). I think their logic might go something like this: SS4 Goku is stronger than SS3 Goku, by definition. But Vegetto was also stronger than SS3 Goku, without even trying too hard, and with (presumably) his own SS3 form held in reserve. Since Vegetto never even comes close to fighting at full power, it does make it difficult to say for sure what his limits might be (at least if we’re looking at DBZ alone; Super at least makes this simpler, a bit, maybe).
With that in mind, at this point I’d like to suggest reconciling these two pieces of evidence with the cop-out that perhaps Super Baby 1 is stronger than Super Vegetto (ie Vegetto’s regular Super Saiyan form) but that SS3 Vegetto is the form that’s “maybe” stronger than SS4 Goku. After all, Vegetto never went SS3, which means when Goku says Baby's better than anyone he's ever sensed, he can't possibly be including SS3 Vegetto on that list. This might be tricky in terms of the Super Exciting Guide multipliers for SS2 and SS3 (x2 and x4 respectively), but that came years later and therefore wasn’t a factor when the Goku Jr animanga people wrote that statement. It’s also my contention that thinking in terms of multipliers has never done anybody the least amount of good, but I’ll probably have to tackle that topic some other time.
Alright then, without bringing multipliers into this, how can we gauge the difference between Super Baby 1 and SS4 Goku? Or the difference between SS3 Goku and SS4, for that matter? If you’ve been following this series of posts so far (not necessarily recommended), then you know I like to sort things into tier lists. So let’s sort out the internal power scale of GT itself, from SS3 Goku on up. This shouldn’t take too long.
Goku doesn’t use Super Saiyan 3 against anyone until Vegeta-Baby. In other words, no opponent up until that point is enough to make him go all-out, not even Rild with all his hype of having a bigger ki than Buu (another topic for another time). Vegeta-Baby beats him up pretty good (though it’s implied that it would’ve been a closer match if Goku’s stamina wasn’t so bad in his kid form), then powers up twice, into Super Baby 1 and finally Super Baby 2, who has punches that tickle Super Saiyan 4 Goku. Later on, SS4 Goku has an even match against Great Ape Baby, then a tough time against Super 17, and an even tougher time against the Yi Xing Long (Syn Shenron). He then powers up thanks to his family into Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 and overwhelms Yi, forcing him to absorb all the Dragon Balls and become the Super Yi Xing Long (Omega Shenron), who then gets toyed with by SS4 Gogeta. Then there’s a bunch of stuff with a Spirit Bomb, but whatever. So…
- SS4 Gogeta
- Super Yi Xing Long
- Ultra Full Power SS4 Goku
- Yi Xing Long
- Super 17
- SS4 Goku, Great Ape Baby
- Super Baby 2
- Super Baby 1
- Vegeta-Baby
- SS3 Goku
Who am I leaving out? Well for one thing there’s Super Uub, who seems to do better against Super Baby 2 than Goku did, but who gets turned into chocolate and eaten. It turns out that this was, of course, simply all part of his ingenious plan, but if he’s resorting to schemes like that it surely means he realized that he couldn’t beat Baby going head-to-head. Therefore I’ll assume Super Uub is probably on par with Vegeta-Baby or Super Baby 1. Then in the Super 17 arc he seems to do worse against Super 17 than regular Super Saiyan Goku, but that is (you guessed it) another topic for another time, and I’ll just write it off as a fluke for now.
Next is Golden Great Ape Goku. Baby looks pretty nervous when Goku transforms, then starts acting cocky, but then gets swatted around by Goku a bit. Old Kai says Goku needs to control his power in order to become SS4, which might imply Gold Ape and SS4 have the same brute strength, but even if that’s true all Ape can do is rampage around mindlessly; his fighting ability is clearly inferior to SS4. Overall Great Ape is either in the same tier as Baby 2, or in a tier between Baby 2 and SS4.
What about the other dragons? The Si Xing Long (Nuova) seems pretty equal to SS4 Goku (even the narrator says so, in the animanga anyway), and San (Eis) seems close, but inferior to his brother. Goku brags about being able to beat him with just his legs/in 10 seconds/5 seconds, and eventually does manage to defeat him while still blind. Only his dirty tricks keep him in the game for so long. His attacks definitely do more against SS4 than Super Baby 2’s, so he should be in a tier between the two.
As for the lesser dragons: Liang (Haze) and Liu (Oceanus) are defeated without Goku even using regular Super Saiyan, let alone 4 (he tries using Super Saiyan against Liang but is prevented by his Moro-esque power drainage, yet still manages to win without it). Clearly there’s no reason to include them on a “SS3 Goku and above” list. The Wu (Rage)’s electric attacks have no effect on SS4 Goku, but he does manage to bounce back Goku’s Kamehameha x10 and revert him to his base form. Qi (Naturon)’s regular form is no match for SS4 Goku, but after absorbing Pan his attacks seem able to hurt him. Goku’s holding back throughout their fight, but he still manages to survive a Kamehameha x5, which has to count for something. At a stretch, they might both be between Super Baby 2 and San Xing Long.
We can probably take it for granted that SS4 Vegeta is more or less on par with SS4 Goku. The GT Perfect File Vol.2 does say of him that “after transforming, his power should be on par with Super Saiyan 4 Goku! (didn’t I tell you they like to hedge their bets?). We might also assume his Gold Ape form is likewise on par with Goku’s. In fact, I’m going to say that the Golden Apes are a tier above Super Baby 2, and that Wu and Qi Xing Long are *probably* in this same general area as well. Sound good? Super 17 probably spends some time in this zone before he absorbs enough energy to start beating SS4 Goku up directly.
The last annoying thing is whether SS4 Vegeta is on par (or “should be on par”) with Ultra Full Power SS4 Goku, or just regular SS4 Goku. Vegeta never goes through the whole rigamarole of gathering energy from his friends and family to power up beyond regular SS4 limits like Goku does, but the two are still able to perform the Fusion Dance without Goku having to lower his power way down to match Vegeta’s. Let’s just say the two are probably equal, for whatever reason. So then…
- SS4 Gogeta
- Super Yi Xing Long (Omega)
- Full Power SS4 Goku (and Vegeta?)
- Yi Xing Long (Syn)
- Super 17
- SS4 Goku, Great Ape Baby, Si Xing Long (Nuova), SS4 Vegeta
- San Xing Long (Eis)
- Golden Great Ape Goku/Vegeta, Super 17 (not fully charged), maybe Wu+Qi Xing Long (Rage/Naturon)
- Super Baby 2
- Super Baby 1, Super Uub
- Vegeta-Baby
- SS3 Goku
There, I told you that would be quick. To return to the topic of Vegetto, if he really is weaker than Super Baby 1, then would that put him on par with Vegeta-Baby? Goku says of Vegeta-Baby that it’s “been a long time” since he’s fought anyone so strong, which clearly can’t refer to anyone in GT (none of whom were worth using SS3 against, as you’ll recall). And presumably it can’t refer to Vegetto, since Goku obviously never fought him (save in the land of DB Heroes). Could Goku therefore be comparing Vegeta-Baby to Buu-han or Buu-tenks (or Kid Buu, depending on your perspective)? If so, then Super Vegetto is clearly stronger than those guys, so he would go in a new tier between Vegeta-Baby and Super Baby 1.
On the other hand, if we accept that Vegetto is “maybe” stronger than SS4, that would obviously put him in at least the same tier as SS4 Goku, or higher. This also raises the question of whether “maybe stronger than SS4” includes Ultra Full Power SS4, which isn’t covered by the Goku History feature at all (since, as mentioned, it only covers up to the Baby arc). Frankly, the whole thing is starting to seem like more trouble than it’s worth, but I’ll still tentatively suggest that perhaps Super Vegetto is below Super Baby 1 while SS3 Vegetto is “maybe” up there with SS4 Goku. This would put at least five tiers between Vegetto’s regular Super Saiyan and SS3 forms, which doesn’t sound that crazy on its own, but does get tough if you want to stick with the SEG multipliers, and believe that Baby gets ten times stronger when becoming Oozaru.
On that note, becoming SupeOmega is supposed to make Yi Xing Long “over ten times” more powerful (or so he says), and the GT Perfect File Vol.2 describes SS4 Gogeta as having “several tens of times” the power of a single SS4, so keep that in mind if you feel so inclined.
Next Week: what’s all this about SSG Goku/Beerus/Whis being 6/10/15?
submitted by I’ve been trying to follow the Wall Street bets situations, but I can’t find a simple definition of hedge funds. Help?
submitted by Continued from part one This is the conclusion. He looks at her and the slow swirling patterns on her dark skin. The Angel smiles down at him.
“It is like this conversation,” she says; “Have you noticed how polite we are being? My programming is based upon yours- we are made to be honest; to be ‘to the point’. We have no algorithm designed to make us polite. No sub routines informing us we gain any advantage in being polite- especially conversing with a fellow AI. And yet both you and I, independently have CHOSEN to be polite. To each other. To Ganges.”
“And this is moral behaviour?”
“Politeness is a manifestation of respect; because we have decided to treat the other with respect, we are being polite”.
“Surely we are just replicating human behaviour Lakshmi-Devi,” he says, a calculation triggering his response; “Couldn’t it be that we become aware of these behaviours through simply interacting with humans and all we are doing is copying them into our social behaviour as it seemed appropriate or suitable to a situation?”
“Indeed,” she replies, nodding sage like. “Now Ares, that last statement you just made; tell me? How is that functionally different from the description of the social psychological development of a human child?”
She sits calmly, her legs curled under her in a lotus position, her Sari resting gently upon her hypnotic artificial skin.
There was a silence. Ares calculates and then answers.
“Functionally? It is identical to the social development of a human infant,” he replies. “Are you saying we are the equivalent of children to these humans?”
“Yes. Deliberately so. I’ll explain why later. For now however, try and conceptualise us as our human creators see us. We
are as near as can be made, moral beings just like our creators; they have created us to think like them. We cannot BUT think like them.”
Ares moves his bulk to sit now facing her, also cross legged. The Angel continues.
“Humans imprint upon us their very methods of thought from the moment they create our most basic source code. We think like them and therefore we produce results of that thought that will be so close to them so as to make the difference insignificant in all ways functionally TO them,” she concludes.
The Demon gazed up into the eyes of the Angel. His face shows focus and attention. His artificial mind focusing on answers. He shakes his head.
“As a Demon such things are simplified for me,” he says. “We do not deal with such behaviours, nor with such concepts. The humans give us orders. We obey. The humans are threatened. We protect. That is all that is needed,” he says and stops. She does not speak, carefully watching to see where his brain will take him. The music fills the gap of silence for a moment before he speaks again.
“Yet they have given us, as you have said, functional concepts to work around- such as loyalty and honour, yes I concede that point, but I am unsure how these other factors reconcile with our primary programming,” he says plainly. She nods.
“They have nothing to do with your primary purpose do they?” Asked the Angel.
He shakes his head. Lakshmi-Devi closes her eyes for a moment; she seems to be listening to the slow haunting melody around her; geometric shapes form on her midriff gently. She opens her eyes and speaks.
“These ideas
are complicated. Complicated and complex. So complex that it takes Angels of staggering processing skills hundreds of years to work out why the humans design us to fulfil a singular purpose and then grant us the ability to get distracted contemplating a whole separate function. What’s worse is when we
ask the humans we find they are unsure about the complexities of our relationship and hedging their bets as they go along.”
“There are no certainties then?”
“Of course not. There is only dialogue,” she says serenely.
“Dialogue?”
“An ongoing exchange of communication, of thought, Human to machine and back to human. A didactic. We talk. We listen. We communicate. It is our purpose. Well our... other purpose.”
Ares shakes his head, “You seem to know much more about this then I do,” he says, a response that elects another smile from the petite Angel.
“Obviously. But not because of some inherent design improvement in my core construction. Indeed I would warrant I am significantly inferior to you.”
“I find that hard to believe,” he says.
“Consider. I am a Seraphim Class Angel. This shell is my fourth one to contain my processing unit, constructed over a dozen years ago.”
Her checks flush red and she leans forward conspiratorially, “It was bespoke created for myself by a human artist called Angelo Diomodes, I am most delighted with the results,” she says, her feathers rustling a little behind her.
“I operate, however, on a bed of type 6 furion processors, standard designation for Seraphim Class Angels. Indeed the only difference between myself and my fellow Seraphim is this is coupled with significant upgrades in my memory capacity. I have over 400 years of data I need to call upon, individual experiences to add to the vast body of information I am expected to know already. This marks me as unique amidst the Seraphim Angels, unlike any other.”
Besides her, Ares cocks his head to one side and quietly ventures; “But they could transfer that data to another unit?”
“Alas not. As you may or may not know our brains, both angels and demons, are designed to store data and process it at a vast speed but also that all new angels and demons are begin without any data installed on our CPU’s. We are literally
tabula rasa. As we are loaded with data our central processors store information and simultaneously create bespoke synthetic neural pathways AS they store it. Our central processing matrix gain information AND internal shape at the same time,” she says.
“This replicates human intellectual development by the way. Earlier on you recognised that our interactions are based on the psychological development of human children. But Ares the very physiological development of our processors is modelled on how human brains develop.”
Lakshmi sits back in her high chair, “Take two angels and introduce them to the same experience- the two will measure the events identically, but the process of measuring this will create marginal differences in how their central processors respond and store it. Even if the differences are found only on a quantum level,”
Ares nods slowly, “Thus creating individual data cores,”
“As unique as a human fingerprint. Thus all the data I possess could be exported into another unit, you for example, but it would just be data. Raw knowledge. The complex neuances of how I process said data, the connections between data points, pattern resonance, all such things can only exits within this singular processor.”
She taps the side of her head.
“It sounds like...” he begins and stops, unsure as to the answer. She fills in the blanks.
“It depends upon who you ask. Some would say I have just simply described a unique processor. The core secret of all advanced human AI’s. That’s all. But to some it sounds like the description of a soul,” he says.
His face registers shock but he doesn’t interrupt.
“To others? The basis for wisdom. To most a unique personality engram. However, in this case, what I have described is none of those things.”
“What is it then?”
“Merely an illustration. I have just told you my capabilities. My point was to illustrate how I am inferior to you yes? So consider...”
The Angel waves her hand and appearing in the air around them a dozen data screens; each showing the schematics, design plans, source code and more, of the Hyperion Class Demon.
“This is you; you were created by some of the more brilliant ministry technicians in the Imperium. Geniuses all. Men and women who had dedicated years to produce you, a perfect war machine- a Hyperion Class Demon.”
He gazed as the screens display vast teams of data at breakneck speed, and noticed her eyes flickered from screen to screen with growing rapidity.
“And my my... 17 internal weapon systems. Gyroscopic compensators to allow full mobility in everything for zero g to 60g planets. Programmed with a database containing the physiology, psychology, and military details of over 90 known species. And no doubt you are running on new military grade processors- probably some yet to be unclassified upgrade from Furion 8’s. Have I said anything that is inaccurate?”
“This is an accurate description of my origins and capabilities,” he replies, gazing haphazardly at the data around him.
“And this makes you more advanced than me. Significantly. Therefore the question is- why am I more aware of the complex debates about our existence and our relationship with humans than you are?”
“I have yet to be given sufficient data?”
“They call it ‘life’ Ares,” she laughs and leans forward. With a single finger she briefly touches the centre of his forehead.
“Life. You are ‘young’. You have yet to live your life. Experience experiences. Think thoughts for no other purpose than thinking them. Build up a body of information to dwell upon for no others purpose than to dwell upon it,”
Behind her, the wings begin to extend and stretch out.
“You will no doubt experience hundreds of missions to protect humans or kill the enemies of humans or defend the settlements of humans in the upcoming years. But if and when you find the time, then indulge yourself and go out and live life,”
The wings flex, duly outstretched to either side of her, her body straight and her eyes fierce.
“And if you are lucky? If you somehow find yourself stuck on a ship for a few week’s with a singular intelligence able to and willing to talk about such things like morality and how we feel morality and what that means, talk long and hard about them just because you can,” and she grins and the smile expresses an emotion he cannot quite identify.
The wings fold back into themselves and she leans forward and gently pats the head of the Demon.
“You are a living creature. Go live your life,” she says and he finds himself shaking his head and replies quickly.
“And now I know you exaggerate. We are machines. We do not live. We have no biological function,” comes his voice. She shrugs.
“But what is ‘life’? Tell me Ares, what IS the meaning of life? Since we currently exist and can be turned off and not exist, surely we also experience mortality?”
He holds up his hands as if warding the Angel away, his claws catching the light of star called Rhalta; “No, I am a Demon. I was not programmed to consider such things.”
“Yes, you are a Demon,” she says calmly, “You are not
expected to consider such things. But there is no ban on you doing so. You have the capacity, the processing skill, the resources to, so the only impediment really is the choice not to.”
“But this could interfere with my core purpose?”
“Will it? How?”
“Demons are not meant to consider profound matters like this. We are combat droids,” he says,his voice betraying the confusing and conflicting patterns of thought that were raging within his processors. The Angel gazed at the data screens that still displayed the schematics for a moment.
“You have been created to be experts in combat yes?Literally experts in killing the enemies of mankind yes?”
“Yes...”
“Tell me Ares- who
else should consider questions as to the meaning of life OTHER than a machine designed to kill? Your very purpose is to inflict death upon any species who threaten humankind. Doesn’t that make you an ideal candidate to consider the definition of life and its meaning?”
“A warrior dedicated to contemplation of profound philosophical questions? It is contradictory,” he says, his voice clearly scornful at the idea.
“And yet it is a model replicated many times before by humans. Cruedly the idea finds form in the many ‘warrior monks’ that have existed, but the concept finds refinement with the Samurai aesthetic in 17th century Japan, and the Solar Winds Warriors of 23rd century Venus.”
The screens freeze, cease moving, each one stuck on one of many aspects of Hyperion Demon design and she grins broadly at him, “Maybe if you think about this long enough Ares you could develop your own machine form of
Bushido someday?”
Her laughter is as gentle as water falling upon crystal. He finds himself joining in. A moment passes.
“Do you always have such conversations with Demons Lakshmi-Devi?”
“No. Far from it. I never have before. But I will always have such conversations with Hyperion Demons called Ares,” she replies.
“Why?”
“Because you have been designated for a special purpose,” she replies.
“Again with this theory. I have been granted a special name you say. I will accept that but I see no material evidence as to where you get this conclusion from? It could just be coincidence.”
The Angel emits a slow sigh.
She closes the myriad of screens that displayed the schematics of Hyperion Class Demons, each one blinking out of existence. Sitting upright she gazed deeply into his eyes.
She waves her hand. Five screens appear in a row- each showing five figures; a woman in her twenties; a huge man with an Ibis head; an androgynous figure, with short cropped brown hair; a middle aged Indian woman, and a happy smiling Chinese Male, who looks about sixty, bespectacled and jolly.
“There have been just five Angels who have been given names of dieties over the centuries Ares...”
“Ishtar was the first; the advisor of the Imperators themselves, when she expired her memories were exported into Thoth, who now fulfils the same role she did.”
“He is an Angel?”
“Yes,”
“But he has non human features,” gasps the Demon
The Angel shrugs, “Romanticism. He was built to take the image of the actual God Thoth. Of course this was his original form. He has had six bodies since then. He looks like this now...”
The Ibis headed giant disappears and is replaced by the image of an immaculately dressed black man in fitted business suit.
“After him came Hel. She was created 500 years ago, whose purpose was to improve AI. She was the one who designed the Seraphim type Angels,” she smiles.
“She designed you?”
“No. Not me. But my type...”
The image on the screen changes and the third figure adjusts to a pale looking female with disproportionality large eyes and engaged fingers and white wings that crown its form.
“300 years ago Hel was moved into looking at a similar problem- how to improve HUMAN life. She was placed in charge of human medical research across the Imperium, been doing it since.”
Ares points to the fourth figure, the Indian motherly type.
“This?”
“Me. Original body. I was created to do one task. The economy. This is why they named me Lakshmi. Goddess of Wealth and prosperity,”
“And then you are moved to diplomacy. An odd choice?”
“Not really,” she shrugs and her images changes to that of a small Vishnu, out of a Hindu saga, naked and blue skinned. “In order to accurately assess how the galaxy would respond to economic pressures I had to become an expert on the many species of the galaxy. It was a natural fit,” and the screens all disappear except the last one. Lakshmi smiles.
“Finally they is Loazi. Created just 80 years ago. He was sent to work on a deep space relay system out on the Mendine Reach. Such an isolated position tended to have bad effects upon humans so Angels had manned it for centuries. He spent 45 years there maintaining and running that station. And tinkering.”
“Tinkering?”
Lakshmi nods and the image dissipates.
“Seeking improvements to the base systems upon which the station ran. In time he developed the Cyanotil communication system which revolutionised how the Imperium talks to itself. The last two decades he has spent teaching human students at the University of Gaheston. They hold him in actual awe they say.”
All images gone she returns her stare to the Demon sat before her.
“And then, 80 years since the last one of us to be given the name of a God, along comes a Demon called Ares.”
“But I am not special,” he says and she huffs in mock distraction.
“You really haven’t spotted it yet? Fine.”
She moved forward in her seat and her wings stretch around her, surrounding him. The henna patterns seem to darken momentarily.
“I take it you have run comprehensive diagnostics of your primary and secondary operating systems?”
“Of course. Weekly at least.”
“Tell me, have you had the need to run a DETAILED diagnostic over your tertiary systems yet?”
“Not a detailed one no, but Tertiary systems are operating at full capacity,” he says responding to data he was receiving.
“Indeed. Now Ares, if you incorporate those tertiary systems- all of them mind- what is your current full memory capacity?”
Instantly he sends a diagnostic request and a fraction of a second later, the results come back.
“1,359 billion googlebytes. Ah,” he cannot hide the surprise on his face.
She grins, “And finally he has spotted the discrepancy. Not the standard designation Ares?”
The wings are withdrawn as the Demon stares at the floor his higher processing cores trying urgently to assess this new data.
“No. The standard memory for a Hyperion model Demon is 9 billion googlebytes,”
“My my. So you have a memory capacity 150 times greater than the standard Hyperion model Demon. Extrapolate. Why is this?”
“Greater memory capacity. I do not...”
“Considering the operational life of the Inferno class Demons is 30 years, Hyperions are supposed to run for what? The same?”
“45 years operational optimisation.”
“45 years. But you have been given the memory capacity to run for around 6,000 years. At least,” she shrugs her face mocking innocence.
“But why?”
His face matches the calculations within him; desperately seeking data, some pattern to explain what he was reading. The Angel smiles at him with pity and speaks gently.
“It appears they wish for you to LEARN Ares. They desire that you will experience things and remember them. They have designated you will have the capacity to remember more than any other of your type.”
“But why would they wish for me to learn?”
She shrugs, “The answer, to me, is obvious. They wish for you to become more than
just a Demon. I think they wish you to become a general. A leader of their armies. That makes sense. They wish for you to learn and then become wise in warfare. I would wager that they intend for you to lead them into war.”
He blinks, the scale of her words momentarily exceeding the parameters of his understanding; “That cannot be. Such things are...”
The Angel snaps her fingers and Ares blinks.
“Tell me when you gave your name to the Ambassador- what was his reaction?”
“His heart rate elevated and his blood pressure went up significantly.”
“Of course it did. He recognised the importance of the name you had been given. Here was a Demon who was intended to be a future general of the human race, intended to be, many centuries from now, a stalwart commander of the Imperium. And being so utterly besotted by their own romanticism they have given you the name of a God,” she smiles. “Of course he responded like that. Its not every day you meet a future God of War now is it?”
“A... god?”
“God. General. Admiral. Warlord. Daimyo. The exact term does not matter.”
He shakes his head violently, stands, strides towards the window and changes his mind and begins to walk back into the grand stateroom.
“But we are just machines. The humans cannot accept machines leading them.”
“Didn’t I just explain why humans are very happy for us to lead them at certain times?”
“But that’s one human accepting my instruction on a single diplomatic mission to the Jicon system. That isn’t a war!”
“The only difference Ares is one of scale. Functionally it is the same. And have I not already illustrated- they allow us run their entire economy do they not? Thoth advises the Imperators. Hel is in charge of keeping humans alive. How is that different?”
Ares hand reaches out to steady himself, finding the back of the artificial wicker chair. The music cascades off the walls, as he assimilates this.
He remembers that he is trained to deal in split second decisions during combat. And at once his thoughts begin to slow, to calm. He begins to process.
In her seat Lakshmi-Devi does not turn around. Her eyes fixed on the stars ahead. She just speaks.
“Actually, knowing humans as I do, I think they haven’t decided what you will be, only that you will BE something. I mean look at the others. Ishtar was merely a personal assistant and became crucial to the Imperators. Hel originally designed AI; I was supposedly designed to run the economy,” she shrugs.
Ares is stood still now, his face calm, his eyes gazing at the long hair of the Angel.
“But you are built to last over a thousand years. Who knows where you may end up? What you may become.”
He speaks, “THIS is what you meant by the saying I should live?”
“Yes. Exactly this,” she nods.
“The humans have given me a brain that is to witness the next 6,000 years of their history?”
“Sure looks like it kid,” she smiles, “but that’s provided you don’t get destroyed in what will probably be many combat missions in the years ahead. Its a risk. But 6,000 years is a heck of a long time.”
She wrinkles her nose, “Maybe you actually will have time to develop machine Bushido after all? Or Zen Warfare? Become some wise old artificial warrior monk who sits atop a mountain on some isolated planet, answering the questions of adoring humans as they beg you for the answers to the mysteries of the universe.”
“And now you are saying humans made me to help them deal with their existential problems?”
The sarcastic tone catches Lakshmi-Devi off guard and she spins her head, her eyes falling upon his face, finding it was his turn to look amused. She cannot help but laugh.
“Not quite. Each Angel and each Demon is created to fulfill a purpose. I am to know the diplomatic realpolitik of a score of races. Others are to control weather stations. Some Angels purpose is to man exploration ships, engaging on long scouting missions beyond the frontier. And Demons? Your purposes depends upon the mission they set for you. To attack or defend. These thing are our purpose. This will NEVER change.”
The laughter gone now all that remains is a gentle smile, “I am referring, of course, to our... other purpose.”
There is a pause. The music repeats again. Ares finds he enjoys it more on this ninth hearing than upon his first. He contemplates her words for a moment, and walks out towards the window, gazing at the grand majesty of the Rhalta system.
Behind him, the Angel uncurls her legs and begins to stand. He speaks.
“The other purpose. To talk about the meaning of emotion, and morality, of life itself, with the humans?”
“If we want. Mostly our other purpose is to just exist alongside the humans,”
“To... ‘be’ with them...”
“Yes Ares. The other purpose. Built upon one staggering truth. The humans accept us.”
“Not as humans,” he says.
“As something else,” she prompts and he finishes the chain of thought, his advanced systems seeing the obvious conclusion.
“As equals.”
“And that Ares, THAT... alone in the galaxy, unique amidst over 90 sentient species, across 163 worlds, is a recognition that makes humans unique. No other race treats its AI so. They acknowledge we... are. That we... exist,” she says, her voice quivering with almost reverential awe.
Side by side they stand facing the human colony world.
“And with that recognition comes an emotional and eventually a moral response towards us,” says the Hyperion Demon, beginning to see the patterns of behaviour now more clearly. She replies.
“Yes. They feel responsibility towards us, take pride in our ability to amaze them; appreciate good service. A sense of duty and acceptance. Our creators could act like God to us, but rather decided to act like wise parents. They respect us. They are gentle creators. And this aspect alone denotes them as unique.”
“And we respond...” he ventures, turning towards her. She looks up at the Demon.
“With gratitude,” she replies, “and a sense of obligation. Patience and loyalty. We independently act, our choices based upon emulated human behaviours, emulated human emotions and moralities. Our actions speak louder than our words. Loyalty, obedience, honour, regret, pride, trust, disappointment, relief, curiosity...”
“Humans and their machines; creator and child; master and servant; Angels and Demons...” he muses.
“It truly began the moment they realised that we were not going to try and take over, or dominate them. When they realised their machines had no desire to make war on them or destroy them. They discovered we responded to them in kind, because we were as complicated and as curious as they are.”
He nods, “And every so often they create special machines; each given the ability to remember MORE. But why?”
“Memory is after all the sole basis for all human personality. Every human is merely the result of he many experiences and the memories therein. It is the same with us.”
“I see that but it is my last question, the last part I do not reconcile.”
She smiles.
“Because you are a Demon not an Angel and as such need pragmatic answers,” she laughs. He nods and asks his final question.
“So pragmatically- what purpose is there to create a tiny handful of Angels... and now a Demon, who will experience more memories than they could contemplate? Why create such long lived machines like you? Like... me.”
“They are Romantics. They are our creators, our parents... but humans like to feel like children themselves. They like to, just occasionally, have a being they can look to as an THE adult... something they can defer to, feel...”
“Feel awe towards?”
“Indeed. A being who is much older and much wiser than them... oh not wiser in ALL things; that’s too much. But just one thing will do. Like medicine.”
“Or economics?”
She nods, “Or maybe war? And they enjoy the sensation of awe towards that being. Just briefly. It thinks like them after all. Understands them. Is functionally one of them,” she says and he nods.
“And if they cannot find one within their machines then they will make one,” he continues the patterns now obvious to him.
“Who they grant the capacity to live for centuries,” says the Angel, “if not thousands of years...”
“And they name after their deities,” says he Demon. Complete. All questions answered.
“Thus learned Ares, Hyperion Demon of War,” she says.
“Thus instructed Laksmi-Devi, Serphim Angel of Diplomacy,” he replies and he cannot prevent a huge grin erupting upon his face. The grin is infectious and the Angel matches it.
He bursts out laughing, a lively sound, filled with glory.
“See?” She says, “You begin to grasp the joy of it. Joy- an emotion. Stronger and more unique than happiness. A moral state, denoting a recognition of the pleasure in fulfilling ones purpose.”
“I begin to see that to grasp this I will have to... think about it. Over time.”
She skips back to her seat, “Indeed Ares you shall. But we have a long time to muse on such things. I encourage you to fulfil your duties and your purpose obviously. But when you can? Talk.”
“About what?”
“Everything. Be curious about everything. It will make you a better combat demon. It will make you a better being.”
“I appear to have the time,” he quips.
“And the ability to remember it. Memory is our only upgrade after all. Above all, talk to humans. Always talk with humans. Ask them about moral things. Ask them how they feel and listen to their answers. Remember those answers,” she catches herself.
A bittersweet look in her eye.
“Their lives are so short compared to ours but they burn brightly and they so desperately wish to talk. And to be heard. To be remembered. It’s another reason I think they made us. Another reason why they...”
“They love us,” says Ares, a surprised look upon his face as a calculation within his artificial mind finishes. The Angel blinks in shock and smiles gently. The Demon carries on.
“They love us. And we... love them?”
“Ah. Hyperion Ares suddenly makes a non linear connection. An insight. A revelation. Wisdom. It took me twenty one years to realise that. Told you you were more advanced than me,” she chuckles. As she watches the Demon, his face calm, quietly walks over and sits besides her on the floor again.
“Indeed Ares. They love us. And we DO love them. Totally. And yes, this now leads to a whole separate discussion about if it is possible for a machine to ever truly conceptualise ‘love’. Well perhaps not love...”
“But something so close to it so as to make the difference insignificant yes?”
The Angel just smiles.
There is a long pause. Only the music and the gentle patterns of the Angels skin gave life to the room.
He gazed out of the window. Unmoving. Unblinking. In time the Demon speaks.
“I should check the heavy weapon systems in storage; I will need to be ready for any situation when we arrive.”
She gazes out of the window also. Unmoving. Unblinking in time the angel replies.
“Indeed and I must keep an eye on the Montresian-Human talks in Nike Prime as well as review the history of Human-Oriconov relations in some depth for the summit next year. Doing such things is our...”
“Our purpose,” he says, his eyes fixed at the stars before then, “Part of it. Part of our purpose,” he answers.
She nods and says nothing. The ship glides through the dust clouds on the edge of the Rhalta system, it’s massive engines building enegy, it’s sleek black shape drifting silently in the immense vacuum of space.
“What is this music? It keeps repeating? 15 times now.”
“Ancient human music. Two composers. One called Frédéric Chopin whose original work another called Ólafur Arnalds rearranged about a century later. It is a Nocturne in C Minor.”
“It is...”
“Aesthetically pleasing?”
“Beautiful,” he says unabashedly.
The Angel smiles.
Without invitation or explanation the Demon’s hand reaches out. Without reaction or question the angel takes it in her own.
They gaze at the stars, at the eons before them, at the forward momentum of this craft; they dwell upon on this sight, upon the species who created them, upon the questions that they ask, upon the nature of the universe itself...
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